A lady friend told me yesterday that three of her friends went on dates in the past week and in all three situations, the guys asked to dine Dutch style. This clearly set off all sorts of alarms in my head which leads to this note.
Call me a male chauvinist, a pig, out dated, conservative or whatever else you can come up with but let us get this out of the way now – I do not believe that in a marriage/relationshp, a man and woman are 50/50. Despite what some people will say, all men aren’t created equal and all women aren’t created equal neither. Let’s toss this 50/50 notion out of the window. So, what exactly is the ratio? I hate numbers because men lie, women lie and numbers lie even more because numbers are interpreted by men and women. But for the sake of pleasing some, I will say that the ratio is 51:49 (M:F) in whatever you think the number represents. We can strive for ‘equality’ everyday but when time gets tough, it is the man’s job to protect and provide for his family.
Fellas, how does this play out in real life?
- When there is a snow storm, it is the our duty to get off our asses and shovel the snow to make sure that the gf/fiancé/wife/kids can have a safe path out of the house. If the lady and kids decide to come out and help, great!!! If not, suck it up and no complaints.
- If it is raining and the umbrellas is too small to cover both of you, we lets the woman take 100% of the umbrella coverage and makes sure she stays dry or we can have her wait inside the restaurant and go bring the car around, no excuses.
- It doesn’t matter how much money she makes or how independent she claims to be, we still open the damn (car) door, pull out her seat or at the very least wait for her to sit down first while on a date. If she does not allow you to open to the door for her, that should be your last date or at least a topic of conversation because it is only a sign of many more struggles to come.
- If there is a need for additional income in the household, who takes the extra job for extra cash……the man.
- e. In the courting process, who pays for the first few dates…..the man! This dutch shit is for the birds and this is not the Netherlands for goodness sake. (I have a strange feeling, even the Dutch don’t do ‘Dutch Dining’)
Ladies:
Some of you really have to stop making excuses for us men. You cannot keep lowering your standards because you are only contributing to the problems that you complain about. You can’t tell me you are miss ‘independent’, want to open your own door or pay for your own meal but come time to shovel snow; your ass wants to have that be the man’s duty.
Another lady friend suggested yesterday that maybe since there aren’t too many men in the dating pool, some women are willing to forego some standards in exchange for male company. If this is the case then may I suggest that you deserve what you get?
Back to dating:
There is a big difference between two friends hanging out and a date. What the activity is probably should be understood by both parties before going out! A lady that I had just met once asked me while out at dinner….’so is this a date or us hanging out?’ I was confused by the question and wondered why she had to ask but she wanted some clarity so she knows who was paying. This started a one hour discussion at dinner about dining etiquette. I respected for at least asking because no one wants to be around someone who doesn’t ask questions when confused.
Who asked who? It doesn’t matter! Ladies, feel free to do the ‘wallet reach’ when the bill comes, some people like to see that but if it is a real date, don’t even do it. If the guy even thinks about suggesting Dutch, that should be the first and last date. Tell him why and then tell him good luck on his next date (with someone else).
How long does he continue to pay for both parties? Until you both feel comfortable enough to discuss it. If you don’t feel comfortable discussing sharing the financial burden of a relationship, then you probably don’t want to start a relationship because that is probably one of the easier conversations to have in a relationship.
I will end with this: Ladies, if you allow a man to skate his way into your life, without earning his way in? He will probably skate while in your life because you set the standard low which gives you very little room to complain.
Disclaimer: Are any of these steadfast rules? Nope, gender roles can always be changed for every given situation as long as both parties openly discuss it and both have a mutual understanding. But we at least need some foundation to start on before we end up been part of the divorce rate statistics.
Although most of us may not like it, I think that the the things that are done in the beginning of a relationship set the standard/expectation for what is to follow later in the relationship. That being said, fellas, if you pay for the first 50 dates, you will need to have a conversation with your lady before hand and let her know if there’s a problem, should you want to change things up, rather than getting to date number 51 and saying “lets go Dutch this time.” Otherwise, expect for her to frown her face up or ask “why”..either of which will probably lead to an argument. The same goes for the ladies. If you’ve been going Dutch from jump and have appeared to be fine with it, you will need to talk about it and explain why you want it to change, rather than getting to dinner and throwing the “why don’t you ever pay” question on the table. Yes, in a perfect world, both parties would “just know” when they are “supposed” to foot the bill or offer to help. Also in a perfect world, one or both parties would just exercise common courtesy and return the favor to each other when a man repeatedly pays for dinner or a woman repeatedly pays half(the “well I always do ‘A’ so you should automatically do ‘B’ from time to time” theory). Although many things in a relationship are viewed as “the norm” or “common knowledge” the truth is, especially today, we don’t all have the same standards and expectations when it comes to relatinonships and not communicating early on when you notice that there is a difference in what you “expect” and what your partner “expects” is a recipie for disaster.
Agreed. I actually am with a guy who got mad when I reached for my wallet to pay for stuff at the mini-mart. He’d been paying for everything so certainly that 7.63 won’t hurt me and I was happy to do it. He was like “uhm, babe…I got this.” I appreciate that because he doesn’t have to do it. But, the fact that he does make me realize that I’ve set a standard and he’s comfortable with it and so am I. At the same time, I do know that I will be happy to pay for dinner, take him out and show him that I have no issue with doing so.
That said, any woman or man needs to make certain that they set a standard that is not only good for both parties, but realistic and sustainable. If I chose to date someone who is in school, then I would not expect them to pay for it all because that’s not realistic. But, I would expect them to pay at times, just as I would pay. It’s not 50/50, but in certain contexts concessions can be made so it’s not unbalanced all the time.
“In the courting process, who pays for the first few dates”
The Key Phrase was “In the COURTING PROCESS”. Courtship/chivalry is dead. Why should a man court a woman to obtain something she has no integerity with? If women had integerity with their body/choices, and held at least 90% of the men they dealt with to the same standard, courtship would still be prevalant.
But lets be honest, women have fluctuating standards. One guy will have to put on the full court press to succeed, while the next man will get it the first night. Men know women aren’t consistent with their standards, so like anything that goes on sale every blue moon, we’re just tryna get the best deal.
Why pay full price when a number of men in her past go discounts, some major some minor?
Courtship is a traditional practice for traditional ladies, and honestly it’s rare to find a traditional lady these day. And I mean a TRUE traditional lady, not a woman who only wants the treatment, yet doesn’t conduct herself as a traditional lady deserving of the treatment.
So the 50/50 move is just a response from men who’ve come to learn that throwing your money on the table just for chance is not a smart move. And most women these days don’t require men’s courtship for their companionship, so why put in more work than needed. Once we’ve gained some foundation, and she’s proven herself to be worthy of my resources, THEN I’ll pay the majority of the time. Until then she works like I do, so she can contribute like I do until she becomes my lady.
This is a lesson alotta old school cats need to learn. The women aren’t all cookies and cream like yesteryear.
RD..WOW! I can see your point to a certain extent. BUT, when men start using the fluctuating standards of SOME women as a barometer for how he chooses to treat all women, then you all get what you deserve. Case and point: If a man I’m with decides that he won’t be a gentleman with me because of how the last chicken-head dealt with him, then he misses out because I will be gone. Likewise, most ladies with a certain standard across the board will not lower them based upon what a man does, thinks, how he acts, etc. She allows him to prove himself as she does the same in return.
Now, that’s not to say that some women aren’t loose with the standards. We all know those women and (in many cases) we can clearly view those women a mile away. So, what men really need to ask themselves is what it is about them that attracts that type of woman. And, just because one woman “lowered her standards” for a man in one instances, doesn’t mean she’s not worth being courted later in life. We all have made some mistakes and the women with good insight and ability turn those isolated situations into cautions for the future. Therefore, she doesn’t repeat the same mistakes and she raises the bar. Same thing with men…you mess with a hoe early in life and get burned, then you realize that when you have decent woman, it’s in your best interest to show some sort of gentlemanly qualities in order to keep that woman interested.
Of course…this is just my opinion.
I don’t even know how to response to ‘RD’.
When I walk into a crowd of ‘thuggish’ ppl in the hood, I don’t treat them like thugs. I treat them like normal humans because my standards don’t change based on what others do. And you would be surprised at how people adjust their reactions to you based on how you treat them. You go around expecting chicks to be gold digging hoes, thats exactly what you will attract…..gold digging hoes.
Even women that have ‘disrespected’ themselves in the past still have the ability to change given the right situation and an encouraging partner who expects positive. Attitude is more than contagious.
You get what you ask for, simple enough. As a single man….I have come across the women that you described and I treated them as such….but I know damn well I don’t want to be with them in the long term.
Given your approach to the situation, you just expect that all women are the same and you will end up marrying a chicken head? If that is the case, god bless you.
Dylan…100% cosign. You attract what you are. And we all have the random chance of meeting crappy people, but we can CHOOSE not to deal with them once we realize they are crappy. But, if you expect folks to act crappy, then they will. And, because you will treat all people with the type of behavior that will mostly likely cause an inherently crappy person to exhibit their innate behavior and an inherently good person to walk…you’ll be left with crap every time.
You two are trying to pinpoint what I described on a subset of women as if those women are the minority. If thats what yall believe, then yall are in denail of the reality of women these days. Rarely will you find a woman who’ll set a standard for herself and stick to it. And stop with the cliche scapegoat of “well those are the women you are attracted to”, because I’m not solely talking about my experiences.
But I’m not gonna give a drawn out expanation because yall are clearly in denail about the truth that MOST women these days have fluctuating standards.
So why should men court and give 100% courtship, if it’s not required or she hasn’t required it in the past?
If you wanted a pair of shoes that you knew were on sale at some point, will you just pay full price, or look for that discount?
Yet yall want men to pay full price no matter the woman’s past or how she holds her integerity.
In any other situation that’d be considered foolish money management, yet with dating it’s ok to throw your money away on women just for a chance, despite the 85% chance that men have succeeded with her in the past for FAR less????
That doesn’t make sense, most men know it, so most men are going for the 50/50.
Don’t get mad at me for stating it, get mad at it because it’s the truth. And the only people who can change are the women.
Want tradition treatment, be traditional ladies. It’s not rocket science.
I came across your post while looking up etiquette rules, and wanted to say that as a woman I basically agree with what you are saying. Women have been lowering their standards. Later on they wonder why the man they married is treating them so poorly.
Women need to realize that paying for dates and opening doors has nothing to do with “equality.” These are things a man can do to prove his worth, that he is able (and willing) to provide for her and respect her. He needs to earn her respect and trust, and you just can’t do that through dutch dates and “equality” nonsense.
Also, whoever said courtship is dead was wrong. It might be dead for you, but there are other real men out there who are willing to make the effort to find a good woman and prove it by respecting her and earning her love. Not everyone has the same goals for dating either. If all you want is someone to sleep with then you pursue those kinds of women. But if a man wants a lasting relationship he courts a different kind of woman who has standards similar to his own.
I’ve been dating a man for over 2 years and we had been taking turns paying. In past relationships, the man insisted on paying for dates always so it was a little hard getting used to paying but I did. I’m fine with taking turns although it’s hard to keep track. However, after the last lunch I paid for he disclosed to me he went to the tilted kilt on the business trip he had just taken, proclaiming it was another hooters type place but better because they wear skirts instead of shorts. He knows I don’t like it because of the temptation issues, it’s hard enough that he goes on business trips without boobs in his face. Since he has plenty of money to spend in gentlemen establishments, he can buy his own d… meals from now on! Dutch it is or we break up, it’ll be a cold day in h… or his birthday before I buy him a meal, etc. again! Dissed…again…
wow, that sounds pretty stupid on your part. He goes to a type or restaurant on a business trip that you don’t like and even though he didn’t do anything (but still told you he went) you want to break up with him if he doesn’t buy the meals from now on? That’s pretty fucking retarded.
Not what I said Kriss. I’m not going to be a fool again and buy him meals from now on. I’m paying for myself only, I don’t need a man to feed me. I’m not treating a man who spends his time and money at places where the waitresses wear revealing outfit so the men will lust after them. He glorifies beauty and boobs and that’s his right but it’s my right not to like it especially when he brags about it knowing it hurts my feelings. Please don’t judge!
well then why the fuck are you with him in the first place? you’re still not making any fucking sense.
Thanks for posting. Since my parents are from India (I was raised in the states), I was raised to think that a man that’s marriage material will not ask you to split the bill. Dutch is unheard of over there. This is a feminist american concept, and now today’s Americans are confused over dating and how to act masculine/feminine. The most common complaint is that men have commitment problems in this country, but I think all of these new dating practices are contributing to that (going dutch and having sex on the first date).
My ex, who was from a European country that also valued chivarly, thought that the concept of paying for a woman is stupid. He thinks women are spoiled and entitled. While I can see his point, his comments are a reflection of how he sees women and how protective he is of his money. After getting to know him, I learned that he was a man that called women whores, put down their looks behind their back, badmouthed all of his exes, and even said that he wanted to spit on my mom’s face. My guy friends that do believe in pampering and cherishing a woman don’t say these things.
I also think that today’s American man gets hostile and defensive at having to pay because he may feel insecure about his ability to provide or him being evaluated as a potential husband/long-term partner. It’s kind of like how overweight women get defensive and hostile about how a lot of men emphasize attractiveness.